Thursday, November 27, 2008
INTRODUCTION
30, 2008An IntroductionDanny McDowellMy name is Dan McDowell. I have been interested in Bible prophecy since I was a young believer almost 30 years ago when I read "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsay. I was fascinated and hooked on the subject. I read everything I could get my hands on. Then I made a terrible mistake.I began to reference the books I read against another book - The Bible. I became frustrated so I developed a method of tolerance to enable myself to continue to feed my appetite for Bible Prophecy. I developed a "Danger List" of verses in the Bible that had caused me to become confused. My list began with Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Next on the list was II Thessalonians 2. Then came "THE BOOK OF REVELATION." I could hear deafening alarms go off in my head and the voice as a Trumpet shouting "STAY AWAY FROM THE BOOK & NOW!" So I got out quick and went back to safer ground.* Hal Lindsay* Dave Hunt* Grant Jefferies* Jack Van Impe* And OthersThings were more peaceful there. It all seemed to make sense as long as I avoided that "Other Book." From time to time I seemed to be drawn to the "Other Book" so I would muster the strength to GO IN. After a short time in "THE BOOK," I scrambled out of there looking, and feeling like I had tangled with a pack of rabid junk yard dogs and would lick my wounds and return to the safety of Hal Lindsay, for he only was worthy.I developed another mechanism for living with my fascination with Prophecy. I called it the "I'm too stupid to research this stuff for myself" mechanism. I could leave this stuff for those who truly understand. This was quite comfortable indeed and yet TEMPTATION was always at hand. The Book, THE BOOK, it was always THE BOOK, black and foreboding. Confusion and frustration was therein. Problems, problems for more than 25 years. Then came Marvin. Marvin Rosenthal and "The Pre-Wrath Rapture" and Gene Bacon "Rapture, Truth or Consequences" and others."Halleluiah," I can open THE BOOK now, no sirens or whistles, no trumpet voices, "and he shall send his angels to gather his elect from Heaven and Earth." "That's it", "That's it", It's in the Book. It's all there. I turned the table. Now I began to use THE BOOK as the authority and to weigh Hal and his friends against THE BOOK - THE BIBLE - THE WORD OF GOD - THE LOGOS and pieces came into place as the key pieces were discovered in THE BIBLE.This began a 2-year study that has been profound, enlightening and exciting at times (especially in light of events happening in the world today). I purchased air time at a local AM radio station and began to proclaim the Word of prophecy. The book of Revelation became a joy and a road map into the future. I spent many hours pouring over that most foreboding work - The Old Testament.Everything Fits..when you use the scripture to define Truth. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the "hub" of bible prophecy. The words of Jesus are the key to unlocking the future. It all works now. Now I can open "THE BOOK." I hope you will do the same.Revelation 20:5BTHIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTIONWARNINGIf you are weak kneed and Mamby Pamby about identifying false doctrine, paganism, and apostasy in evangelical Christianity, then THIS SITE IS NOT FOR YOU! Look to others who are willing to dance around the truth. I'm tired of dancing!Buckle up. Here we go!
Thursday, November 27, 2008
ESCHATOLOGY---The SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL---apologetics
Thursday, November 27, 2008
The SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL
24, 2007The 70 Weeks of Daniel"The 70 Weeks of Daniel"Contiguous / Unbroken“THOUGH THIS PRESENTATION DOES NOT REFLECT MY OWN VIEW, THAT THE REMAINING HALF OF THE SEVENTIETH WEEK IS A FUTURE EVENT: THIS ARTICLE CERTAINLY REPRESENTS A FAITHFUL INTERPRETATION OF DANIEL 9:26-27 AS FAR AS THAT POINT DESCRIBED AS----“THE MIDST OF THE WEEK”. AS I HAVE SAID-------I BELIEVE THAT THE REMAINING 3 ½ YEARS. [the GREAT TRIBULATION] IS A FUTURE EVENT !” I DO NOT KNOW THE AUTHOR. Danny McDowellDetermining the Starting Point for the Seventy Weeks Prophecy10a. There are four historic events to choose from;Upon the conquering of Babylon by Cyrus, King of Persia and the Medes/Persian Empire, He made a decree that God had revealed to Him that Israel should be set free of their captivity, and Cyrus decreed that whosoever would, should go up to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple to the one God YHVH.This God inspired act set off a series of four events in History by several Kings of the Medes/Persian Empire. Here are four candidate, Start-Up dates to choose from for the beginning of the "Seventy Weeks" prophecy.Candidates for Start-Up in Chronological Order539BCKing Cyruss' degree for Israel to go up to Jerusalem and build. This event is prophesied by Isaiah 44:28, fulfilled in Ezra chapter 1.516BCKing Darius the 1st of Persia's decree for the elders of Israel to build God's Temple at Jerusalem. Recorded in Ezra chapter 6.458/457BCBased on King Artaxerxes decree to Ezra to return to Jerusalem and re-establish the Law and to rebuild the Temple and the practice of the Law in the Temple. This event is recorded in Ezra chapter 7 (also see Ezra 9:9).445/444BCBased on Nehemiah's Petition to King Artaxerxes to return to Jerusalem. This event is recorded in Nehemiah chapter 2.10b. Selection 548/547BC; The DistinguishingCharacter of the Restoration of the LawOf these candidates, one is outstanding in its character in that it involves the restoration of the Law of God. Friends, all of these historic events and decrees listed above involved physical building of Jerusalem, it's walls, etc. But remember our God who has said;Psalms 127:1 (NIV)1 A Song of degrees for Solomon. Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.10c. The Spiritual vs the Purely PhysicalOne can lay bricks, build walls, and create a city, but unless the God of the Bible, His name is YHVH or Jehovah in English, is the center of its purpose then all will be in vain. And remembering that this is a prophecy where God answered Daniel's prayer for a physical deliverance from bondage,with a spiritual deliverance from sin and transgression through this Messiah who would come, then noting the fact that the 548/547BC event of Ezra's journey to reestablish the Law and to build is a wise choice.Ezra's task and mission and the decree of King Artaxerxes is found in Ezra chapter 7, and it is important also to consider Ezra 9:9.Ezra 9:99 For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.11. The Calculations Relative to 458/457BC11a. Absence of the Year Zero on the Julian CalendarThe Jullian Calendar passes from 1BC to 1AD with no year "zero". Whenever determining time passages between years we must add one year to our calculations because of this missing year zero. The opposite is true when calculating which year we will arrive at when the time passage is known, in which case we must subtract one year. Here is an example chart to illustrate:11b. Determining Time Passage When Dates Are GivenThough we would normally expect to count 10 years of time passage between the year 5BC and 5AD, there is actually only nine years because of the missing year zero. Therefore we must SUBTRACT one year in such calculations. A working formula for known Dates dermining time would be;Determining Time Passage with Given Dates:YearBC + YearAD - 1 = Total Time Passage in Years5BC + 5AD - 1 = 9 yearsDetermining Date with Time Passage Given:YearBC + TimePassage + 1 = YearAD5BC + 9years + 1 = 5ADor from AD to BCYearAD - TimePassage + 1 = YearBC5AD - 9years + (-1) = -5BC11c. Determining A Date with a Given Time Passage:Though we would normally expect to count 10 years of time passage between the year 5BC and 5AD, there is actually only nine years because of the missing year zero. Therefore we must ADD one year in such calculations. A working formula for known time passage dermining a date would be shown above.11d. The Seventy Weeks TranslatedDaniel 9:24-2724 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Verse 24 - Seventy "Weeks" is 490 Years:70 X 7 = 49025 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.Verse 25 part(a) - Seven "Weeks" is 49 Years:7 X 7 = 49Verse 25 part(b) - Three Score and Two "Weeks" is 434 Years:62 X 7 = 434Added together:49 + 434 = 48327 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.Verse 27 - One "Week" Remains:1 X 7 = 7Added together:(Verse 25) 483 + 7 (Verse 27)= 49011e. The 458/457BC CalculationHaving now completed the preliminary calculations we process the information given by the Angel Gabriel into the start-up date of 458BC.The Formula: YearBC + TimePassage + 1 = YearAD458/457BC + 483 + 1 = 26/27ADThis will place the Baptism of Yeshua of Nazareth at this 26 or 27AD placing His Crucifixion at approximately 30AD. Also...458 + 490 + 1 = 33AD... approximately 3 years after a 30AD crucifixion.11f. The Baptism of Yeshua Approximately 27ADThe Baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ is linked with the 15th Year of Tiberius Caesar by Luke 3:1, because this is the year that John the Baptist announced Yeshua as the Lamb of God and baptised Him.Luke 3:1Luk 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,The fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar is often stated as beginning in 14AD, but that is a surface level assessment, only. That statement does not consider the co-regency reign of Tiberius Caesar which began 2 years earlier as is cited by early Christian writer Tertullian who documented this coregent rule.This places the baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ exactly at 27AD, perfectly fulfilling the prophecy at the end of the 69th week, exactly as does Daniel 9:25, as 7 weeks and 62 weeks = 69 weeks (483 years). Verse 25 clearly states this to be the timing of the arrival of Messiah.Daniel 9:2525 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.From: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/ISBE/ID/8768Tiberius is mentioned by name only once in the New Testament (Luke 3:1): "the 15th year of the reign (hegemonia) of Tiberius." The question is, From what date is this to be reckoned--the date of Tiberius's co-regency, 13 (or 11) AD, or from his accession, 14 AD?From: http://www.doig.net/NTC12.htmTiberius became Caesar on August 19, 14, and in that year Dios 1 fell on October 15. Thus, his first regnal year according to the Syro-Macedonian calendar would be from Dios 1, or October 25, 13 until October 14, 14.Luke would have measured the fifteen years from that year one by non-accession, or inclusive, reckoning. Thus, the "fifteenth year" fell from October 20, 27 to October 9, 28. According to Luke's Syro-Macedonian reckoning John the Baptist began his ministry between these two dates. This falls in line with the arrival of Pontius Pilate by the autumn of 27. The earliest first Passover of Jesus' ministry would have been in 28.11g. The Crucifixion of Yeshua in 30AD as opposed to 33ADThe date of the year 30AD is considered be the correct date of the crucifixion of Yeshua of Nazareth for two reasons. One is the above determination of the date of His water baptism. Two is the fact that some do not accept the Friday crucifixion and prior to Sunday morning before the Sun arose resurrection timing. That is because the believe these words spoken by Jesus, without adulteration.Matthew 12:4040 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.The idea of a 33AD Friday afternoon to before Sunday morning idea does not fulfill these words of Christ and should be discounted. The year 30AD would provide for a Wednesday crucifixion following this time table.11h. Completion of the Prophecy... The Last WeekWith the 69 weeks of the Prophecy calculated, we have only one week remaining. So far we have place the ascent of Messiah exactly where verse 25 places Him, exactly 69 weeks (483 years) after our start up date of 458 BC. With Biblical support that will be stated in the next segment, we see Messiah Yeshua "cut off" after the 69th week as verse 26 clearly reads;Daniel 9:2626 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.Not only do our calculations perfectly align with the conclusion of week 69 but it places the 30AD crucifixion of Yeshua of Nazareth exactly in the middle of the 70th week where verse 27 states that His sacrifice caused the oblation (sacrifices in the Temple) to end. We do well remember the veil of the Temple being torn in two, upon our Saviour's death. This was an indication that the atonement for sins had been completed and no longer would an animal sacrifice be sufficient to atone for sins. Only the blood of the Messiah, the LAMB of God can now do that.Daniel 9:2727 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL
24, 2007The 70 Weeks of Daniel"The 70 Weeks of Daniel"Contiguous / Unbroken“THOUGH THIS PRESENTATION DOES NOT REFLECT MY OWN VIEW, THAT THE REMAINING HALF OF THE SEVENTIETH WEEK IS A FUTURE EVENT: THIS ARTICLE CERTAINLY REPRESENTS A FAITHFUL INTERPRETATION OF DANIEL 9:26-27 AS FAR AS THAT POINT DESCRIBED AS----“THE MIDST OF THE WEEK”. AS I HAVE SAID-------I BELIEVE THAT THE REMAINING 3 ½ YEARS. [the GREAT TRIBULATION] IS A FUTURE EVENT !” I DO NOT KNOW THE AUTHOR. Danny McDowellDetermining the Starting Point for the Seventy Weeks Prophecy10a. There are four historic events to choose from;Upon the conquering of Babylon by Cyrus, King of Persia and the Medes/Persian Empire, He made a decree that God had revealed to Him that Israel should be set free of their captivity, and Cyrus decreed that whosoever would, should go up to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple to the one God YHVH.This God inspired act set off a series of four events in History by several Kings of the Medes/Persian Empire. Here are four candidate, Start-Up dates to choose from for the beginning of the "Seventy Weeks" prophecy.Candidates for Start-Up in Chronological Order539BCKing Cyruss' degree for Israel to go up to Jerusalem and build. This event is prophesied by Isaiah 44:28, fulfilled in Ezra chapter 1.516BCKing Darius the 1st of Persia's decree for the elders of Israel to build God's Temple at Jerusalem. Recorded in Ezra chapter 6.458/457BCBased on King Artaxerxes decree to Ezra to return to Jerusalem and re-establish the Law and to rebuild the Temple and the practice of the Law in the Temple. This event is recorded in Ezra chapter 7 (also see Ezra 9:9).445/444BCBased on Nehemiah's Petition to King Artaxerxes to return to Jerusalem. This event is recorded in Nehemiah chapter 2.10b. Selection 548/547BC; The DistinguishingCharacter of the Restoration of the LawOf these candidates, one is outstanding in its character in that it involves the restoration of the Law of God. Friends, all of these historic events and decrees listed above involved physical building of Jerusalem, it's walls, etc. But remember our God who has said;Psalms 127:1 (NIV)1 A Song of degrees for Solomon. Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.10c. The Spiritual vs the Purely PhysicalOne can lay bricks, build walls, and create a city, but unless the God of the Bible, His name is YHVH or Jehovah in English, is the center of its purpose then all will be in vain. And remembering that this is a prophecy where God answered Daniel's prayer for a physical deliverance from bondage,with a spiritual deliverance from sin and transgression through this Messiah who would come, then noting the fact that the 548/547BC event of Ezra's journey to reestablish the Law and to build is a wise choice.Ezra's task and mission and the decree of King Artaxerxes is found in Ezra chapter 7, and it is important also to consider Ezra 9:9.Ezra 9:99 For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.11. The Calculations Relative to 458/457BC11a. Absence of the Year Zero on the Julian CalendarThe Jullian Calendar passes from 1BC to 1AD with no year "zero". Whenever determining time passages between years we must add one year to our calculations because of this missing year zero. The opposite is true when calculating which year we will arrive at when the time passage is known, in which case we must subtract one year. Here is an example chart to illustrate:11b. Determining Time Passage When Dates Are GivenThough we would normally expect to count 10 years of time passage between the year 5BC and 5AD, there is actually only nine years because of the missing year zero. Therefore we must SUBTRACT one year in such calculations. A working formula for known Dates dermining time would be;Determining Time Passage with Given Dates:YearBC + YearAD - 1 = Total Time Passage in Years5BC + 5AD - 1 = 9 yearsDetermining Date with Time Passage Given:YearBC + TimePassage + 1 = YearAD5BC + 9years + 1 = 5ADor from AD to BCYearAD - TimePassage + 1 = YearBC5AD - 9years + (-1) = -5BC11c. Determining A Date with a Given Time Passage:Though we would normally expect to count 10 years of time passage between the year 5BC and 5AD, there is actually only nine years because of the missing year zero. Therefore we must ADD one year in such calculations. A working formula for known time passage dermining a date would be shown above.11d. The Seventy Weeks TranslatedDaniel 9:24-2724 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Verse 24 - Seventy "Weeks" is 490 Years:70 X 7 = 49025 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.Verse 25 part(a) - Seven "Weeks" is 49 Years:7 X 7 = 49Verse 25 part(b) - Three Score and Two "Weeks" is 434 Years:62 X 7 = 434Added together:49 + 434 = 48327 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.Verse 27 - One "Week" Remains:1 X 7 = 7Added together:(Verse 25) 483 + 7 (Verse 27)= 49011e. The 458/457BC CalculationHaving now completed the preliminary calculations we process the information given by the Angel Gabriel into the start-up date of 458BC.The Formula: YearBC + TimePassage + 1 = YearAD458/457BC + 483 + 1 = 26/27ADThis will place the Baptism of Yeshua of Nazareth at this 26 or 27AD placing His Crucifixion at approximately 30AD. Also...458 + 490 + 1 = 33AD... approximately 3 years after a 30AD crucifixion.11f. The Baptism of Yeshua Approximately 27ADThe Baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ is linked with the 15th Year of Tiberius Caesar by Luke 3:1, because this is the year that John the Baptist announced Yeshua as the Lamb of God and baptised Him.Luke 3:1Luk 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,The fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar is often stated as beginning in 14AD, but that is a surface level assessment, only. That statement does not consider the co-regency reign of Tiberius Caesar which began 2 years earlier as is cited by early Christian writer Tertullian who documented this coregent rule.This places the baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ exactly at 27AD, perfectly fulfilling the prophecy at the end of the 69th week, exactly as does Daniel 9:25, as 7 weeks and 62 weeks = 69 weeks (483 years). Verse 25 clearly states this to be the timing of the arrival of Messiah.Daniel 9:2525 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.From: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Def.show/RTD/ISBE/ID/8768Tiberius is mentioned by name only once in the New Testament (Luke 3:1): "the 15th year of the reign (hegemonia) of Tiberius." The question is, From what date is this to be reckoned--the date of Tiberius's co-regency, 13 (or 11) AD, or from his accession, 14 AD?From: http://www.doig.net/NTC12.htmTiberius became Caesar on August 19, 14, and in that year Dios 1 fell on October 15. Thus, his first regnal year according to the Syro-Macedonian calendar would be from Dios 1, or October 25, 13 until October 14, 14.Luke would have measured the fifteen years from that year one by non-accession, or inclusive, reckoning. Thus, the "fifteenth year" fell from October 20, 27 to October 9, 28. According to Luke's Syro-Macedonian reckoning John the Baptist began his ministry between these two dates. This falls in line with the arrival of Pontius Pilate by the autumn of 27. The earliest first Passover of Jesus' ministry would have been in 28.11g. The Crucifixion of Yeshua in 30AD as opposed to 33ADThe date of the year 30AD is considered be the correct date of the crucifixion of Yeshua of Nazareth for two reasons. One is the above determination of the date of His water baptism. Two is the fact that some do not accept the Friday crucifixion and prior to Sunday morning before the Sun arose resurrection timing. That is because the believe these words spoken by Jesus, without adulteration.Matthew 12:4040 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.The idea of a 33AD Friday afternoon to before Sunday morning idea does not fulfill these words of Christ and should be discounted. The year 30AD would provide for a Wednesday crucifixion following this time table.11h. Completion of the Prophecy... The Last WeekWith the 69 weeks of the Prophecy calculated, we have only one week remaining. So far we have place the ascent of Messiah exactly where verse 25 places Him, exactly 69 weeks (483 years) after our start up date of 458 BC. With Biblical support that will be stated in the next segment, we see Messiah Yeshua "cut off" after the 69th week as verse 26 clearly reads;Daniel 9:2626 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.Not only do our calculations perfectly align with the conclusion of week 69 but it places the 30AD crucifixion of Yeshua of Nazareth exactly in the middle of the 70th week where verse 27 states that His sacrifice caused the oblation (sacrifices in the Temple) to end. We do well remember the veil of the Temple being torn in two, upon our Saviour's death. This was an indication that the atonement for sins had been completed and no longer would an animal sacrifice be sufficient to atone for sins. Only the blood of the Messiah, the LAMB of God can now do that.Daniel 9:2727 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
ESCHATOLOGY----Matthew 23----for the JEWS ?---apologetics
November 26, 2008
Matthew 24---apologetics
Oct 24, 2007Matthew 24 Olivet DiscourseMatthew 24Olivet Discourse1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.It is said of those who teach the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, that the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 and Mark 13) has little to do with the church today. The claim of pre-tribulation proponents is that the events of the Olivet discourse happen (for the most part) during the “seventieth week of Daniel”.It is also taught that the entirety of the 70th week of Daniel is explicitly "synonymous" with the Day of the Lord. Since the Lord has promised to deliver the church from the Day of the Lord, then "CERTAINLY" the church must be raptured prior to the events of the Olivet Discourse.Their explanation of the events in this discourse is thus: "The Olivet Discourse relates specifically to Tribulation Saints, Tribulation Jews and others who have been LEFT BEHIND following the rapture. There is a popular fictional novel in series as well as a movie (Left behind), which deals with many aspects of this doctrine. This is the prevailing position on the Olivet Discourse in evangelical Christianity in the western church today.Let's see what the Bible says about this position.The Rebuttal"; document.write(lubid_string); //--> Tell us, when shall these things be? what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?................It is said in pre-tribulationism that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (the Olivet Discourse) have "little if anything" to do with the church and the church age. It is proudly proclaimed that the church will be raptured from the earth prior to the events of the Olivet Discourse and that the only Christians That will see those events are those unsaved people who were "LEFT BEHIND" at the advent of the rapture. Let's take a close look at the Olivet Discourse and see if these claims are so.Verse 3...."3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?".... Please note in verse 3, the Lord's disciples ask 3 questions; a) "when shall these things be," b) "what shall be the sign of thy coming," c) "and of the end of the world?"....We can therefore assume by the questions, that the Lord's answers will be appropriate to the questions. Jesus then begins to answer their questions FULLY.Verse 4...."4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."....Is Jesus speaking to "Tribulation Saints" in this clear directive? No! He is speaking to the Church of all ages through his vessels - The Disciples.Verse 5..."5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."... Many shall come in my name saying "I am Christ" and shall deceive many. ... Question:... How can this possibly be speaking of those "Left Behind" when the Lord says "Many will come in MY NAME and deceive many saying I AM CHRIST! Could he possibly be speaking to non-believing Jews? Those who openly REJECT the name of Jesus? - of course not. He is speaking to the Church of the ages regarding the signs of his coming!Verse 6..."6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."...And Ye (same ye - the Church) shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, these things MUST come to pass but THE END IS NOT YET!Verse 7..."7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."...War, Famine, Pestilence, Earthquakes!Verse 8..."8All these are the beginning of sorrows. "... This is only the BEGINNING OF SORROWS.Verse 9..."9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."... They shall deliver YOU up to affliction. Who can Jesus possibly be speaking of here? Certainly not unbelieving Jews of the “70th week of Daniel”. He can only be speaking of the Church at large in those days. He clearly states "You will be hated of ALL NATIONS FOR MY NAME'S SAKE. Jesus can be speaking to none other than the CHURCH, the redeemed, the elect!Verse 10..."10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. "... Betrayal!Verse 11..."11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. "... False Prophets!Verse 12..."12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. "... Iniquity shall abound! (see 2nd Thessalonians, Chapter 2)Verse 13..."13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. "... He that shall endure TO THE END shall be saved. The Lord continues to speak of THE ELECT, the Church!... I Corinthians 15:22-24 "22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."... II Corinthians 1:13-14 "13For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; 14As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus."... Hebrews 6:11 "11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:"... I Peter 1:13 "13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"... Revelation 2:25-26 "25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"Verses 14-21Verse 14..."14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;and then shall the end come."... And this gospel of the Kingdom SHALL BE PREACHED in all the world… Question: If these events take place AFTER the rapture, then who may I ask will be spreading the gospel to ALL THE NATIONS? Those "LEFT BEHIND?" An absurd notion!Verse 15..."15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ".Now he speaks to JEW and GENTILE in reference to “reading” the BOOK OF DANIEL.Verse 16..."16Then let them which be in Judaea [JEWS] flee into the mountains: "Verse 17..."17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: "... HIMVerse 18..."18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. "... HIMVerse 19..."19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! "Verse 20 ..."20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: "The reason that FLIGHT would be difficult on SABBATH is because of the SABBATH REST laws which would make it very difficult for many Jews..Verse 21..."21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. "... Note: Daniel 12:1-3 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."...Note: "everyone that shall be found written in the book, and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." There is clearly a resurrection of the righteous dead after this event of the Great Tribulation. This resurrection coincides with the resurrection of the righteous dead mentioned in Revelation 20. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION, and it comes after the tribulation of Matthew 24.Verses 22-28Verse 22..."22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "... Those days SHALL be shortened for the sake of the elect! It is frequently said in pre-tribulation theology that the ELECT mentioned here are "Tribulation Saints," those 'LEFT BEHIND.'Let's take a Biblical look at the ELECT..The English word "elect" is taken from the Greek word "eklectos." In every verse or passage in the New Testament, the term "elect" is used to describe the Church - the Church of all ages. It is never attempted by New Testament writers to individualize the "elect" i.e. pre-tribulation elect versus tribulation "elect." The elect ARE the elect - the Church!Elect - EKLEKTOS: "The Chosen"II Timothy 2:10:..."Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."Romans 8:33: ..."Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."Collossians 3:12:..."Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;"Titus 1:1:..."Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;"I Peter 1:2:..."Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."Matthew 24:22:..."And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."Matthew 24:24:..."For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."WE ARE SUPPOSE TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS REFERING TO “TRIBULATION JEWS IN THE OLIVETTE, WHEN THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT DECLARES THAT IT IS THE CHURCH , THAT IS “GOD’S ELECT” ??Note: Mark 13:20 ..."For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."EKLECTOS - WHOM HE HATH CHOSENVerse 23..."23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. "... Another admonition of false Christs. Who would be interested in knowing the identity of FALSE CHRISTS? The Jews?-------NONSENSE----- Only the elect, THE CHURCH!Verse 24..."24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. "... Note: "if it were possible, they would deceive the very ELECT."Verse 25-26..."25Behold, I have told you before. "26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. "... Another caution TO THE ELECT - THE CHURCH.Verse 27..."27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. "... The ONLY way the Son of Man will come FOR HIS ELECT!Verse 28..."28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. "... Where you see one event, you can expect another! Now Jesus will tell us exactly when the church will be taken.Verses 29-31Verse 29..."29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun and moon will be darkened and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.Mark 13:24: ..."24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, "Joel 2:31-32..."31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. " "32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. "Isaiah 13:6-13:..."6Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. "Revelation 6:12-13:..."12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. "THIS IS THE ONLY "DAY OF THE LORD" DESCRIBED IN ALL OF THE BIBLE!Verse 30..."30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "...Note: "And then shall appear."Verse 31..."31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "THE RAPTURE!THE ONLY RAPTURE! THE ONLY RAPTURE!Mark 13:27:..."27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. "Matthew 13:39:..."39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels." "Matthew 13:47-49:..."47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, "I Corinthians 15:51-52:..."51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. "We shall be CHANGED , then gathered by the ANGELS!Verse 32-34..."32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. "... So much for imminence!Verse 35..."35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."...The certainty of these events.Verse 36..."36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."...This day and hour is speaking of the entirety of the events of this Discourse.Verse 37-39..."37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."... Reference: NoahVerse 40-41..."40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. "...It is interesting to note that some that teach pre-tribulationism utilize these verses (40-41) as representations of the Rapture. They conveniently remove these verses from their context i.e. AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. This is a clear and flagrant perversion of this text. It is shameful to say in the least!Verse 42..."42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. "...Jesus can ONLY be speaking of the entirety of this Discourse when He says "you know not what hour YOUR LORD doth come." Note: "YOUR LORD." Can Jesus be speaking to anyone other than The Church?Verse 43-44..."43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."...Be ye ALSO Ready, like the Goodman of the house. How can we be ready if the rapture takes place without any preceding signs? Jesus warns us in these verses to "know the watch" through the events of the Olivet Discourse.I Thessalonians 5:4-6: "4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."...I must mention that Pre-tribulationists frequently use these two verses to support the notion that Jesus will rapture His Church before the” 70th week of Daniel”, using the words "in such an hour, as ye think not - the Son of Man cometh." Isn't it interesting that in all of the Olivet Discourse, it is said that the YE's of the passage are "tribulation saints" or "tribulation Jews", then they try to use the "YE" of verse 44 of the same Discourse to say that this speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture. AMAZING!Verse 45-51..."45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite hisfellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "...Verses 45-51 identify and separate the good servants of the Church Age from the bad servants. Note, in verse 45 the words "in due season." This speaks of the rewards that follow the works of the wise servant, which will come at the end of the age when Christ will return in the air and gathers together His elect....The evil servant will not be watching for the signs of His coming. He will suffer the wrath of God and be punished with the ungodly at the end of the age. Remember that THE DAY OF THE LORD begins AFTER the tribulation of those days.Will the gathering together of God's elect take place prior to the opening of SEVEN YEARS OF TRIBULATION?Impossibl
Matthew 24---apologetics
Oct 24, 2007Matthew 24 Olivet DiscourseMatthew 24Olivet Discourse1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.It is said of those who teach the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, that the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 and Mark 13) has little to do with the church today. The claim of pre-tribulation proponents is that the events of the Olivet discourse happen (for the most part) during the “seventieth week of Daniel”.It is also taught that the entirety of the 70th week of Daniel is explicitly "synonymous" with the Day of the Lord. Since the Lord has promised to deliver the church from the Day of the Lord, then "CERTAINLY" the church must be raptured prior to the events of the Olivet Discourse.Their explanation of the events in this discourse is thus: "The Olivet Discourse relates specifically to Tribulation Saints, Tribulation Jews and others who have been LEFT BEHIND following the rapture. There is a popular fictional novel in series as well as a movie (Left behind), which deals with many aspects of this doctrine. This is the prevailing position on the Olivet Discourse in evangelical Christianity in the western church today.Let's see what the Bible says about this position.The Rebuttal"; document.write(lubid_string); //--> Tell us, when shall these things be? what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world?................It is said in pre-tribulationism that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 (the Olivet Discourse) have "little if anything" to do with the church and the church age. It is proudly proclaimed that the church will be raptured from the earth prior to the events of the Olivet Discourse and that the only Christians That will see those events are those unsaved people who were "LEFT BEHIND" at the advent of the rapture. Let's take a close look at the Olivet Discourse and see if these claims are so.Verse 3...."3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?".... Please note in verse 3, the Lord's disciples ask 3 questions; a) "when shall these things be," b) "what shall be the sign of thy coming," c) "and of the end of the world?"....We can therefore assume by the questions, that the Lord's answers will be appropriate to the questions. Jesus then begins to answer their questions FULLY.Verse 4...."4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you."....Is Jesus speaking to "Tribulation Saints" in this clear directive? No! He is speaking to the Church of all ages through his vessels - The Disciples.Verse 5..."5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."... Many shall come in my name saying "I am Christ" and shall deceive many. ... Question:... How can this possibly be speaking of those "Left Behind" when the Lord says "Many will come in MY NAME and deceive many saying I AM CHRIST! Could he possibly be speaking to non-believing Jews? Those who openly REJECT the name of Jesus? - of course not. He is speaking to the Church of the ages regarding the signs of his coming!Verse 6..."6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."...And Ye (same ye - the Church) shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, these things MUST come to pass but THE END IS NOT YET!Verse 7..."7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places."...War, Famine, Pestilence, Earthquakes!Verse 8..."8All these are the beginning of sorrows. "... This is only the BEGINNING OF SORROWS.Verse 9..."9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."... They shall deliver YOU up to affliction. Who can Jesus possibly be speaking of here? Certainly not unbelieving Jews of the “70th week of Daniel”. He can only be speaking of the Church at large in those days. He clearly states "You will be hated of ALL NATIONS FOR MY NAME'S SAKE. Jesus can be speaking to none other than the CHURCH, the redeemed, the elect!Verse 10..."10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. "... Betrayal!Verse 11..."11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. "... False Prophets!Verse 12..."12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. "... Iniquity shall abound! (see 2nd Thessalonians, Chapter 2)Verse 13..."13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. "... He that shall endure TO THE END shall be saved. The Lord continues to speak of THE ELECT, the Church!... I Corinthians 15:22-24 "22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."... II Corinthians 1:13-14 "13For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; 14As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus."... Hebrews 6:11 "11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:"... I Peter 1:13 "13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"... Revelation 2:25-26 "25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"Verses 14-21Verse 14..."14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;and then shall the end come."... And this gospel of the Kingdom SHALL BE PREACHED in all the world… Question: If these events take place AFTER the rapture, then who may I ask will be spreading the gospel to ALL THE NATIONS? Those "LEFT BEHIND?" An absurd notion!Verse 15..."15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ".Now he speaks to JEW and GENTILE in reference to “reading” the BOOK OF DANIEL.Verse 16..."16Then let them which be in Judaea [JEWS] flee into the mountains: "Verse 17..."17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: "... HIMVerse 18..."18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. "... HIMVerse 19..."19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! "Verse 20 ..."20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: "The reason that FLIGHT would be difficult on SABBATH is because of the SABBATH REST laws which would make it very difficult for many Jews..Verse 21..."21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. "... Note: Daniel 12:1-3 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."...Note: "everyone that shall be found written in the book, and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." There is clearly a resurrection of the righteous dead after this event of the Great Tribulation. This resurrection coincides with the resurrection of the righteous dead mentioned in Revelation 20. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION, and it comes after the tribulation of Matthew 24.Verses 22-28Verse 22..."22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. "... Those days SHALL be shortened for the sake of the elect! It is frequently said in pre-tribulation theology that the ELECT mentioned here are "Tribulation Saints," those 'LEFT BEHIND.'Let's take a Biblical look at the ELECT..The English word "elect" is taken from the Greek word "eklectos." In every verse or passage in the New Testament, the term "elect" is used to describe the Church - the Church of all ages. It is never attempted by New Testament writers to individualize the "elect" i.e. pre-tribulation elect versus tribulation "elect." The elect ARE the elect - the Church!Elect - EKLEKTOS: "The Chosen"II Timothy 2:10:..."Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."Romans 8:33: ..."Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."Collossians 3:12:..."Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;"Titus 1:1:..."Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;"I Peter 1:2:..."Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."Matthew 24:22:..."And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."Matthew 24:24:..."For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."WE ARE SUPPOSE TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS REFERING TO “TRIBULATION JEWS IN THE OLIVETTE, WHEN THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT DECLARES THAT IT IS THE CHURCH , THAT IS “GOD’S ELECT” ??Note: Mark 13:20 ..."For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."EKLECTOS - WHOM HE HATH CHOSENVerse 23..."23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. "... Another admonition of false Christs. Who would be interested in knowing the identity of FALSE CHRISTS? The Jews?-------NONSENSE----- Only the elect, THE CHURCH!Verse 24..."24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. "... Note: "if it were possible, they would deceive the very ELECT."Verse 25-26..."25Behold, I have told you before. "26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. "... Another caution TO THE ELECT - THE CHURCH.Verse 27..."27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. "... The ONLY way the Son of Man will come FOR HIS ELECT!Verse 28..."28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. "... Where you see one event, you can expect another! Now Jesus will tell us exactly when the church will be taken.Verses 29-31Verse 29..."29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun and moon will be darkened and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.Mark 13:24: ..."24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, "Joel 2:31-32..."31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. " "32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. "Isaiah 13:6-13:..."6Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 7Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: 8And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. 9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. "Revelation 6:12-13:..."12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. "THIS IS THE ONLY "DAY OF THE LORD" DESCRIBED IN ALL OF THE BIBLE!Verse 30..."30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "...Note: "And then shall appear."Verse 31..."31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "THE RAPTURE!THE ONLY RAPTURE! THE ONLY RAPTURE!Mark 13:27:..."27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. "Matthew 13:39:..."39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels." "Matthew 13:47-49:..."47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, "I Corinthians 15:51-52:..."51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. "We shall be CHANGED , then gathered by the ANGELS!Verse 32-34..."32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. "... So much for imminence!Verse 35..."35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."...The certainty of these events.Verse 36..."36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."...This day and hour is speaking of the entirety of the events of this Discourse.Verse 37-39..."37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."... Reference: NoahVerse 40-41..."40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. "...It is interesting to note that some that teach pre-tribulationism utilize these verses (40-41) as representations of the Rapture. They conveniently remove these verses from their context i.e. AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. This is a clear and flagrant perversion of this text. It is shameful to say in the least!Verse 42..."42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. "...Jesus can ONLY be speaking of the entirety of this Discourse when He says "you know not what hour YOUR LORD doth come." Note: "YOUR LORD." Can Jesus be speaking to anyone other than The Church?Verse 43-44..."43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."...Be ye ALSO Ready, like the Goodman of the house. How can we be ready if the rapture takes place without any preceding signs? Jesus warns us in these verses to "know the watch" through the events of the Olivet Discourse.I Thessalonians 5:4-6: "4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."...I must mention that Pre-tribulationists frequently use these two verses to support the notion that Jesus will rapture His Church before the” 70th week of Daniel”, using the words "in such an hour, as ye think not - the Son of Man cometh." Isn't it interesting that in all of the Olivet Discourse, it is said that the YE's of the passage are "tribulation saints" or "tribulation Jews", then they try to use the "YE" of verse 44 of the same Discourse to say that this speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture. AMAZING!Verse 45-51..."45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite hisfellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "...Verses 45-51 identify and separate the good servants of the Church Age from the bad servants. Note, in verse 45 the words "in due season." This speaks of the rewards that follow the works of the wise servant, which will come at the end of the age when Christ will return in the air and gathers together His elect....The evil servant will not be watching for the signs of His coming. He will suffer the wrath of God and be punished with the ungodly at the end of the age. Remember that THE DAY OF THE LORD begins AFTER the tribulation of those days.Will the gathering together of God's elect take place prior to the opening of SEVEN YEARS OF TRIBULATION?Impossibl
ESCHATOLOGY-----COMING AS A THIEF---TO WHO ?---apologetics
Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Coming as a THEIF---apologetics
Oct 24, 2007Coming As A ThiefThe Pre-tribulation ThiefDanny McDowellPre-tribulationists frequently cite scriptures concerning Christ’s “return as a thief in the night” to support their doctrine of “imminence.” The reasoning behind the use of the “Thief” passages is to establish and promote the notion that “Christ’s” coming as a thief, in an hour and day that no man knows” supports their position of Imminence. Pre-tribulationists teach that the Gathering of the Church (Rapture) has been imminent since the establishment of the church at Pentecost. Here are the verses commonly used in this position.Matthew 24:42-44 “42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”MARK 13:32-33 "32 but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the SON , but the FATHER, 33 take ye heed ,watch and pray; fo ye know not when the time is"Luke 12:40“40Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”I Thessalonians 5:2“2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”Revelation 3:3“3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”Revelation 16:15" Behold I come as a thief, Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."These are, in fact, the totality of verses used in support of imminence regarding the gathering of the elect (the Church). Is this the intent of those particular passages?Let’s see what the BibleREALLY SAYS. Read On BelowThe Thief Matthew 24:44“44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”The strong admonition of the Lord in this verse is to KNOW THE WATCH! Jesus clearly uses the example of “The Goodman of the House” who “if he KNEW in what hour the thief would come, he would NOT allow his house to be entered. What possible intent could Jesus possibly have in using this parable? Is it to say that we SHOULD NOT or COULD NOT know the WATCH? This is an absurd notion indeed. Can you imagine? Pre-tribulationists would have us believe that “being ignorant of THE WATCH is a good thing. Let’s follow up with verse 44.Matthew 24:44“44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”“Be ye also ready…” Let me say this more clearly,BE YE ALSO READYCan it be truthfully proclaimed by any stretch of the imagination that Jesus is suggesting that there will be NO signs prior to his coming for the church. We must remember the context of this entire passage is in regard to “The Last Days.”Pre-tribulationists would have us believe that Jesus suddenly, and without warning, departs from his discourse and crashes into another direction, i.e. “Imminence.” This is an assault on common sense! The ONLY person who will be caught “off guard” in this passage is found in verses 48-51.He is that “EVIL SERVANT!” The “DAY” in this passage refers to the “time frame” of the passage, and the “HOUR” refers to the actual advent of the gathering of the “ELECT,” verse 31. (“31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”)Luke 12:39“39And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.”The same reasoning is applied to this verse. Pre-tribulationists simply disregard context to make their point. Let’s read the entire context.Luke 12:35-46“35Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”Note in verse 38 that the Lord again refers to “THE WATCH.” This is a military term and it is NEVER applied to a “momentary” point in time. It is always speaking of “FRAMES of TIME.” Anyone who has served in the armed forces can easily understand the meaning of “THE WATCH.” The “WATCH” begins at a predetermined point in time, and ends in the same way.When Jesus uses the terms “2nd watch, 3rd watch” he is referring to “time frames” with the church age. Once again Jesus points to the “Goodman of the House” as the example for “KNOWING the WATCH.” It is simply amazing to me that “WATHCING” has been interpreted as “Being caught by surprise” by the pre-tribulationists. The S-T-R-E-T-C-H of this interpretation simply boggles the mind.Note verse 41-43: “41Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.”It is said in pre-tribulationism that the Olivet Discourse is pertinent to only those “left behind” and the “Jews.” Look closely at verse 41. Peter asks the question, “Are you speaking to us ONLY, or to ALL?” Jesus’ reply answers the question unequivocally – This is meant for the Church of ALL AGES!Pre-tribulationists emphatically claim that the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 does not apply to the Church of all ages since the Church will be “raptured” prior to those events, yet Jesus uses this SAME parable (the Goodman of the house) in this passage and clears up the question, “who does he speak to here.” The answer is unquestionably ALL!I Thessalonians 5:2“2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”Interesting that only the first verse of this thought is used to support imminence in this passage. Let’s take some time to develop the teaching that Paul is expounding to the Thessalonians. This is the entire context of this thought.I Thessalonians 5:1-11“1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”Verse 1: the Thessalonians have already been informed of the times and seasons by Paul’s prior personal teaching to this church.Verse 3: speaks of “THEY” – the unbeliever. When “they” say “Peace and Safety” is this a sign? Of course it is, and yet the pre-tribulationists declare “there are no preceding signs.”Verse 4: “4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” Emphatically YOU WILL NOT BE CAUGHT OFF GUARD!WHY?“4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”Verse “You ARE THE CHILDREN of LIGHT” the light of Paul’s teaching about “THE DAY OF THE LORD.”Verse 6: “. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”LET US WATCH!Verse 9: “9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” This verse is frequently used to support a pre-tribulation rapture since the apostle guarantees the church exemption from God’s wrath, which they, in error, interpret as the entire 70th week of Daniel.
Coming as a THEIF---apologetics
Oct 24, 2007Coming As A ThiefThe Pre-tribulation ThiefDanny McDowellPre-tribulationists frequently cite scriptures concerning Christ’s “return as a thief in the night” to support their doctrine of “imminence.” The reasoning behind the use of the “Thief” passages is to establish and promote the notion that “Christ’s” coming as a thief, in an hour and day that no man knows” supports their position of Imminence. Pre-tribulationists teach that the Gathering of the Church (Rapture) has been imminent since the establishment of the church at Pentecost. Here are the verses commonly used in this position.Matthew 24:42-44 “42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”MARK 13:32-33 "32 but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the SON , but the FATHER, 33 take ye heed ,watch and pray; fo ye know not when the time is"Luke 12:40“40Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”I Thessalonians 5:2“2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”Revelation 3:3“3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”Revelation 16:15" Behold I come as a thief, Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."These are, in fact, the totality of verses used in support of imminence regarding the gathering of the elect (the Church). Is this the intent of those particular passages?Let’s see what the BibleREALLY SAYS. Read On BelowThe Thief Matthew 24:44“44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”The strong admonition of the Lord in this verse is to KNOW THE WATCH! Jesus clearly uses the example of “The Goodman of the House” who “if he KNEW in what hour the thief would come, he would NOT allow his house to be entered. What possible intent could Jesus possibly have in using this parable? Is it to say that we SHOULD NOT or COULD NOT know the WATCH? This is an absurd notion indeed. Can you imagine? Pre-tribulationists would have us believe that “being ignorant of THE WATCH is a good thing. Let’s follow up with verse 44.Matthew 24:44“44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”“Be ye also ready…” Let me say this more clearly,BE YE ALSO READYCan it be truthfully proclaimed by any stretch of the imagination that Jesus is suggesting that there will be NO signs prior to his coming for the church. We must remember the context of this entire passage is in regard to “The Last Days.”Pre-tribulationists would have us believe that Jesus suddenly, and without warning, departs from his discourse and crashes into another direction, i.e. “Imminence.” This is an assault on common sense! The ONLY person who will be caught “off guard” in this passage is found in verses 48-51.He is that “EVIL SERVANT!” The “DAY” in this passage refers to the “time frame” of the passage, and the “HOUR” refers to the actual advent of the gathering of the “ELECT,” verse 31. (“31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”)Luke 12:39“39And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.”The same reasoning is applied to this verse. Pre-tribulationists simply disregard context to make their point. Let’s read the entire context.Luke 12:35-46“35Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”Note in verse 38 that the Lord again refers to “THE WATCH.” This is a military term and it is NEVER applied to a “momentary” point in time. It is always speaking of “FRAMES of TIME.” Anyone who has served in the armed forces can easily understand the meaning of “THE WATCH.” The “WATCH” begins at a predetermined point in time, and ends in the same way.When Jesus uses the terms “2nd watch, 3rd watch” he is referring to “time frames” with the church age. Once again Jesus points to the “Goodman of the House” as the example for “KNOWING the WATCH.” It is simply amazing to me that “WATHCING” has been interpreted as “Being caught by surprise” by the pre-tribulationists. The S-T-R-E-T-C-H of this interpretation simply boggles the mind.Note verse 41-43: “41Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.”It is said in pre-tribulationism that the Olivet Discourse is pertinent to only those “left behind” and the “Jews.” Look closely at verse 41. Peter asks the question, “Are you speaking to us ONLY, or to ALL?” Jesus’ reply answers the question unequivocally – This is meant for the Church of ALL AGES!Pre-tribulationists emphatically claim that the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 does not apply to the Church of all ages since the Church will be “raptured” prior to those events, yet Jesus uses this SAME parable (the Goodman of the house) in this passage and clears up the question, “who does he speak to here.” The answer is unquestionably ALL!I Thessalonians 5:2“2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”Interesting that only the first verse of this thought is used to support imminence in this passage. Let’s take some time to develop the teaching that Paul is expounding to the Thessalonians. This is the entire context of this thought.I Thessalonians 5:1-11“1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”Verse 1: the Thessalonians have already been informed of the times and seasons by Paul’s prior personal teaching to this church.Verse 3: speaks of “THEY” – the unbeliever. When “they” say “Peace and Safety” is this a sign? Of course it is, and yet the pre-tribulationists declare “there are no preceding signs.”Verse 4: “4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” Emphatically YOU WILL NOT BE CAUGHT OFF GUARD!WHY?“4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”Verse “You ARE THE CHILDREN of LIGHT” the light of Paul’s teaching about “THE DAY OF THE LORD.”Verse 6: “. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”LET US WATCH!Verse 9: “9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,” This verse is frequently used to support a pre-tribulation rapture since the apostle guarantees the church exemption from God’s wrath, which they, in error, interpret as the entire 70th week of Daniel.
ESCHATOLOGY---No one knows the DAY/HOUR----apologetics
Wednesday, November 26, 2008
No One knows the day----apologetics
WebsiteOct 24, 2007No One Knows The Day...No One Knows The Day Nor The HourDanny McDowellMatthew 24:42:It is taught in pre-tribulationism that the words of Jesus indicate that the gathering of the elect support the “THIEF” theory. Once again, we must look a little closer at the passage to understand the true meaning.“KNOW” Strongs Reference # 1492: Greek – Iedo (eedo) to now know, always in the present “perfect” tense. As opposed to;“KNOW” Strongs Reference # 1097: Greek – Ginosko (ghinoosko) “to perceive and understand.”In each and EVERY passage where it is declared “No man KNOWS the day nor the hour,” the Greek work IEDO is used. It simply means no man NOW knows the day nor hour. Each and every time this phrase is used, it is ALWAYS attached to the clear admonition to WATCH for the signs of His coming. ALL THE SIGNS!In Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse), the command to watch for the signs of His (Jesus) coming, both PRECEED and FOLLOW (the statement “No man KNOWS (IEDO) the day nor hour.” The Lord has made it emphatically clear, that we must KNOW (ginosko – to understand, to perceive) the watch. A simple example is this: you’re driving down a highway, there are no mile markers.You do not KNOW (IEDO) how much further to your destination until you see some identifiable markers saying “Kingdom City – 5 miles,” then you begin to KNOW (ginosko) some detail. As you drive further, you see a sign “Kingdom City – Next Exit, ¼ mile”. Now you KNOW (ginosko) even more, and so-on until you arrive at the corner of Matthew and 24th street where you make a right hand turn till you come to the crossing of 24th street and 30th Avenue.Now you KNOW (IEDO and Ginosko) where you are. This is exactly what these passages say. You must ALWAYS weigh what is VAGUE in scripture, against what is EMPHATIC. When you are confronted by this conflict, you MUST ALWAYS dig deeper. These things are NOT unknown to those educated in pre-tribulation theology. This makes them all the more accountable for their utterly false doctrine!Jesus declared to his disciples (and the Church of the Ages) – You do not NOW know, so you must watch for the signs, and as you BEGIN to see the signs, you will KNOW that more and more signs are forth coming, and then suddenly you will arrive at that LAST SIGN preceding the gathering of the elect when “THE SUN BECOMES DARK as SACK CLOTH, THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, THE POWERS OF THE HEAVEN SHALL BE SHAKEN AND THE SON OF MAN and He shall send His ANGELS to gather His elect from Heaven (the dead who rise first) and earth (those who are alive and remain unto His coming).”Mark 13:24-31: “24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”I Thessalonians 4:13-17: “13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”Blessed will be that day when the Union of “IEDO” and “GINOSKO” comes to pass, for THEN, the rapture will become…IMMINENT
No One knows the day----apologetics
WebsiteOct 24, 2007No One Knows The Day...No One Knows The Day Nor The HourDanny McDowellMatthew 24:42:It is taught in pre-tribulationism that the words of Jesus indicate that the gathering of the elect support the “THIEF” theory. Once again, we must look a little closer at the passage to understand the true meaning.“KNOW” Strongs Reference # 1492: Greek – Iedo (eedo) to now know, always in the present “perfect” tense. As opposed to;“KNOW” Strongs Reference # 1097: Greek – Ginosko (ghinoosko) “to perceive and understand.”In each and EVERY passage where it is declared “No man KNOWS the day nor the hour,” the Greek work IEDO is used. It simply means no man NOW knows the day nor hour. Each and every time this phrase is used, it is ALWAYS attached to the clear admonition to WATCH for the signs of His coming. ALL THE SIGNS!In Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse), the command to watch for the signs of His (Jesus) coming, both PRECEED and FOLLOW (the statement “No man KNOWS (IEDO) the day nor hour.” The Lord has made it emphatically clear, that we must KNOW (ginosko – to understand, to perceive) the watch. A simple example is this: you’re driving down a highway, there are no mile markers.You do not KNOW (IEDO) how much further to your destination until you see some identifiable markers saying “Kingdom City – 5 miles,” then you begin to KNOW (ginosko) some detail. As you drive further, you see a sign “Kingdom City – Next Exit, ¼ mile”. Now you KNOW (ginosko) even more, and so-on until you arrive at the corner of Matthew and 24th street where you make a right hand turn till you come to the crossing of 24th street and 30th Avenue.Now you KNOW (IEDO and Ginosko) where you are. This is exactly what these passages say. You must ALWAYS weigh what is VAGUE in scripture, against what is EMPHATIC. When you are confronted by this conflict, you MUST ALWAYS dig deeper. These things are NOT unknown to those educated in pre-tribulation theology. This makes them all the more accountable for their utterly false doctrine!Jesus declared to his disciples (and the Church of the Ages) – You do not NOW know, so you must watch for the signs, and as you BEGIN to see the signs, you will KNOW that more and more signs are forth coming, and then suddenly you will arrive at that LAST SIGN preceding the gathering of the elect when “THE SUN BECOMES DARK as SACK CLOTH, THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, THE POWERS OF THE HEAVEN SHALL BE SHAKEN AND THE SON OF MAN and He shall send His ANGELS to gather His elect from Heaven (the dead who rise first) and earth (those who are alive and remain unto His coming).”Mark 13:24-31: “24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”I Thessalonians 4:13-17: “13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”Blessed will be that day when the Union of “IEDO” and “GINOSKO” comes to pass, for THEN, the rapture will become…IMMINENT
ESCHATOLOGY---REV.4 JOHN is CAUGHT UP ?
Wednesday, November 26, 2008
Rev.4:1----John is CAUGHT UP ?
Oct 24, 2007John is Caught UpDanny McDowellRevelation 4:1-2:The Pre-tribulationists claim that John’s experience in Revelation 4:1-2 is representative of the Rapture of the church. The fact that John hears a voice “as the sound of a trumpet” is in reference to the “Last Trump” of I Thessalonians 4:16, “16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” I Corinthians 15:52, “52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”Since John is caught up into heaven at the sound of this “trumpet voice” then certainly the church of all ages will be caught up at that same time.Revelation 4:1, “1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”This passage is commonly cited as proof that the church is caught up at this time because the 24 elders around the throne of God represent 24 elders of the church. It is also said that Revelation 4:10-11 proves that the 24 elders of heaven are the raptured church because they “cast their CROWNS before the throne,” this being the crowns that the saints receive at His coming.Also cited as proof that the church is immediately in heaven at Revelation 4:1 are the verses ofRevelation 5:2-4, “2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.”It is said that the angelic exclamation that “NO MAN was worthy in heaven,” shows that MEN (the church) are in heaven. Verse 4 says “I wept much because “NO MAN” was worthy to open the book.” The reference to “NO MAN” is also said to be proof of the church resurrection of Revelation 4:1-2. Does the “catching up” of John in Revelation 4:1-2 represent the Rapture of the church?Let’s take a look.The RaptureThe Gathering of the ElectLet’s begin by a close examination of Revelation 4:1-2:“1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”It is said in pre-tribulation theology that this experience of John being caught up is representative of the rapture of the church. It is cited that John hears “the voice as a trumpet” and this could ONLY be the trump of God when the dead in Christ are resurrected. There are many problems with this notion, and yet this position is consistent with the pre-tribulationists approach to “text interpretation.”To begin – John hears a “Voice” as a trumpet. Not a trumpet! Look closely at Revelation 1:10-11,“10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.”What does John hear at this time? THE VOICE AS A TRUMPET! Any RAPTURE HERE? Of course not. Just because John heard a “Voice” as a trumpet in Revelation 4:1-2 certainly does NOT mean that this “VOICE” is the trump of God.This is an incredible S-T-R-E-T-C-H. Can you say C-O-N-J-E-C-T-U-R-E? Secondly, John was then taken “INTO HEAVEN” through an “OPEN DOOR.” Does this sound like the gathering of the elect to you? Where do the elect GO at the sounding of the TRUMP of GOD?INTO THE AIR!The trumpet will sound. The dead in Christ will be raised. We shall be “CHANGED”I Corinthians 15:52,“52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”then we will be gathered BY THE ANGELS –Matthew 24:31:“31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”Matthew 13:39-41:“39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;”Matthew 13:49:“49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,”And taken to meet the Lord IN THE AIR!I Thessalonians 4:17:“17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”Where? IN THE AIR!This experience of John in Revelation 4:1-2 has NOTHING to do with THE RAPTURE!The claims regarding the 24 elders of Revelation 4:4 and 4:10 are preposterous. Where do you find 24 CHURCH ELDERS in the New Testament! This is simply another outrageous claim in an attempt to create a pre-tribulation RAPTURE. Things in heaven are the reality of types and foreshadows in things of earth.The four and twenty elders of heaven are those realities of the Twenty four elders of Israel who are the TYPES of things heavenly! There is also that matter of the Old Testament Saints who were resurrected at Christs’ resurrection, and presented to the Father in the THIRD HOUR of the day as FIRST FRUITS!These are much more likely to be those TWENTY FOUR ELDERS of the Book of Revelation, since Israel did INDEED have TWENTY FOUR ELDERS.As to the references of Revelation 5:3-4, “NO MAN;” the correct interpretation from the Greek text is precise – “NO ONE” was worthy to open the scroll! No creature in Heaven or Earth!Frequently cited as proof to the resurrected church in heaven prior to the opening of the “70th week of Daniel” are these verses as well!Revelation 5:9-10:“9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”Using the term US as representing those already gathered to heaven prior to the opening of the First Seal., is proof positive to the Pre-Tribulationist, that the Church is in Heaven before the Great Tribulation begins.. Once again the pre-tribulation proponents will NEVER tell you the truth of these terms (KJV).“US.” The fact is that the word “US” translated in the KJV is actually, “THEY” in the Greek text! The passage reads “he has redeemed THEM to God” (those on earth)! “and hast made THEM (on earth) unto our God, Kings and priests.”Note in Revelation 5:8-9:“8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us [them] to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”It is the 24 elders who hold “VIALS” full of THE PRAYERS of the SAINTS. The 24 elders (the church ?) having VIALS FULL OF THE PRAYERS of the SAINTS [ who they say are already in Heaven]?Ridiculous! This pre-tribulation interpretation of scripture is the most prominent representation of pre-tribulation perversion in the entire doctrine.This twisted perversion of the word of God represents the desperation involved in proving this doctrine. It is more blatant than that of the pronouncement of the “Holy Spirit” as the restrainer of II Thessalonians 2.Please Note in Rev 7:13-14 , it is one of the " 24 elders "which points out the fact that-------“THESE ARE THOSE THAT CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION”The more PhD’s you hold, the more shameful it becomes to pervert the Book of Revelation! This is the Modus Operandii of Pre-Tribulation eschatologists.Revelation 22:19:“19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”These 24 elders are the heavenly representatives of types and foreshadows on earth. They hold in their hands “VIALS” containing the PRAYERS of the SAINTS on EARTH! What are these prayers? Turn the page and begin to read the events of the SEALS of the SCROLL and you will fully understand THE PRAYERS of the SAINTS!Is the Church of all ages Caught up with John at Revelation 4:1-2?IMPOSSIBLE!
Rev.4:1----John is CAUGHT UP ?
Oct 24, 2007John is Caught UpDanny McDowellRevelation 4:1-2:The Pre-tribulationists claim that John’s experience in Revelation 4:1-2 is representative of the Rapture of the church. The fact that John hears a voice “as the sound of a trumpet” is in reference to the “Last Trump” of I Thessalonians 4:16, “16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” I Corinthians 15:52, “52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”Since John is caught up into heaven at the sound of this “trumpet voice” then certainly the church of all ages will be caught up at that same time.Revelation 4:1, “1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”This passage is commonly cited as proof that the church is caught up at this time because the 24 elders around the throne of God represent 24 elders of the church. It is also said that Revelation 4:10-11 proves that the 24 elders of heaven are the raptured church because they “cast their CROWNS before the throne,” this being the crowns that the saints receive at His coming.Also cited as proof that the church is immediately in heaven at Revelation 4:1 are the verses ofRevelation 5:2-4, “2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.”It is said that the angelic exclamation that “NO MAN was worthy in heaven,” shows that MEN (the church) are in heaven. Verse 4 says “I wept much because “NO MAN” was worthy to open the book.” The reference to “NO MAN” is also said to be proof of the church resurrection of Revelation 4:1-2. Does the “catching up” of John in Revelation 4:1-2 represent the Rapture of the church?Let’s take a look.The RaptureThe Gathering of the ElectLet’s begin by a close examination of Revelation 4:1-2:“1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”It is said in pre-tribulation theology that this experience of John being caught up is representative of the rapture of the church. It is cited that John hears “the voice as a trumpet” and this could ONLY be the trump of God when the dead in Christ are resurrected. There are many problems with this notion, and yet this position is consistent with the pre-tribulationists approach to “text interpretation.”To begin – John hears a “Voice” as a trumpet. Not a trumpet! Look closely at Revelation 1:10-11,“10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.”What does John hear at this time? THE VOICE AS A TRUMPET! Any RAPTURE HERE? Of course not. Just because John heard a “Voice” as a trumpet in Revelation 4:1-2 certainly does NOT mean that this “VOICE” is the trump of God.This is an incredible S-T-R-E-T-C-H. Can you say C-O-N-J-E-C-T-U-R-E? Secondly, John was then taken “INTO HEAVEN” through an “OPEN DOOR.” Does this sound like the gathering of the elect to you? Where do the elect GO at the sounding of the TRUMP of GOD?INTO THE AIR!The trumpet will sound. The dead in Christ will be raised. We shall be “CHANGED”I Corinthians 15:52,“52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”then we will be gathered BY THE ANGELS –Matthew 24:31:“31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”Matthew 13:39-41:“39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;”Matthew 13:49:“49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,”And taken to meet the Lord IN THE AIR!I Thessalonians 4:17:“17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”Where? IN THE AIR!This experience of John in Revelation 4:1-2 has NOTHING to do with THE RAPTURE!The claims regarding the 24 elders of Revelation 4:4 and 4:10 are preposterous. Where do you find 24 CHURCH ELDERS in the New Testament! This is simply another outrageous claim in an attempt to create a pre-tribulation RAPTURE. Things in heaven are the reality of types and foreshadows in things of earth.The four and twenty elders of heaven are those realities of the Twenty four elders of Israel who are the TYPES of things heavenly! There is also that matter of the Old Testament Saints who were resurrected at Christs’ resurrection, and presented to the Father in the THIRD HOUR of the day as FIRST FRUITS!These are much more likely to be those TWENTY FOUR ELDERS of the Book of Revelation, since Israel did INDEED have TWENTY FOUR ELDERS.As to the references of Revelation 5:3-4, “NO MAN;” the correct interpretation from the Greek text is precise – “NO ONE” was worthy to open the scroll! No creature in Heaven or Earth!Frequently cited as proof to the resurrected church in heaven prior to the opening of the “70th week of Daniel” are these verses as well!Revelation 5:9-10:“9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”Using the term US as representing those already gathered to heaven prior to the opening of the First Seal., is proof positive to the Pre-Tribulationist, that the Church is in Heaven before the Great Tribulation begins.. Once again the pre-tribulation proponents will NEVER tell you the truth of these terms (KJV).“US.” The fact is that the word “US” translated in the KJV is actually, “THEY” in the Greek text! The passage reads “he has redeemed THEM to God” (those on earth)! “and hast made THEM (on earth) unto our God, Kings and priests.”Note in Revelation 5:8-9:“8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us [them] to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;”It is the 24 elders who hold “VIALS” full of THE PRAYERS of the SAINTS. The 24 elders (the church ?) having VIALS FULL OF THE PRAYERS of the SAINTS [ who they say are already in Heaven]?Ridiculous! This pre-tribulation interpretation of scripture is the most prominent representation of pre-tribulation perversion in the entire doctrine.This twisted perversion of the word of God represents the desperation involved in proving this doctrine. It is more blatant than that of the pronouncement of the “Holy Spirit” as the restrainer of II Thessalonians 2.Please Note in Rev 7:13-14 , it is one of the " 24 elders "which points out the fact that-------“THESE ARE THOSE THAT CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION”The more PhD’s you hold, the more shameful it becomes to pervert the Book of Revelation! This is the Modus Operandii of Pre-Tribulation eschatologists.Revelation 22:19:“19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”These 24 elders are the heavenly representatives of types and foreshadows on earth. They hold in their hands “VIALS” containing the PRAYERS of the SAINTS on EARTH! What are these prayers? Turn the page and begin to read the events of the SEALS of the SCROLL and you will fully understand THE PRAYERS of the SAINTS!Is the Church of all ages Caught up with John at Revelation 4:1-2?IMPOSSIBLE!
ESCHATOLOGY---MILLIONS MISSING---apologetics
November 26, 2008
MILLIONS mysteriously missing ?
Oct 24, 2007Millions MissingDanny McDowellIt is taught in pre-tribulation doctrine that the rapture is a SECRET event and that Christians will simply DISAPPEAR from the earth. It is taught that this event will be the event that throws the world into the chaos that leads into the 70th week of Daniel and the revelation of anti-Christ. There are no scripture passages used by those who promote this notion. Will millions of people simply disappear from the earth?Let’s take a look.Millions FoundThe reason that NO pre-tribulationist cites scripture for the theory of “millions missing” is simple. THERE ARE NONE! This notion is a complete fabrication. Can you say H-O-L-L-Y-W-O-O-D?This “Secret Rapture” is certainly worthy of a modern day movie script but that’s all! The only “missing” that are described in the Bible are those ofMatthew 24:29-31:“29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”and they are FOUND in…Revelation 7:9-10:" After this I beheld and lo a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds, and people and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"Who are all these people?Revelation 7:13-17:“13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”There are those ELDERS again, only NOW the point to that GREAT THRONE saying “These are those who come out of GREAT TRIBULATION.”Silent Rapture?Millions Missing?IMPOSSIBLE!
MILLIONS mysteriously missing ?
Oct 24, 2007Millions MissingDanny McDowellIt is taught in pre-tribulation doctrine that the rapture is a SECRET event and that Christians will simply DISAPPEAR from the earth. It is taught that this event will be the event that throws the world into the chaos that leads into the 70th week of Daniel and the revelation of anti-Christ. There are no scripture passages used by those who promote this notion. Will millions of people simply disappear from the earth?Let’s take a look.Millions FoundThe reason that NO pre-tribulationist cites scripture for the theory of “millions missing” is simple. THERE ARE NONE! This notion is a complete fabrication. Can you say H-O-L-L-Y-W-O-O-D?This “Secret Rapture” is certainly worthy of a modern day movie script but that’s all! The only “missing” that are described in the Bible are those ofMatthew 24:29-31:“29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”and they are FOUND in…Revelation 7:9-10:" After this I beheld and lo a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations and kindreds, and people and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"Who are all these people?Revelation 7:13-17:“13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”There are those ELDERS again, only NOW the point to that GREAT THRONE saying “These are those who come out of GREAT TRIBULATION.”Silent Rapture?Millions Missing?IMPOSSIBLE!
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